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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with dr. David C Lane about cults

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skepticism and his defense of dr.

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Patricia Churchland

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I'm having an interview with her to

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expose how ridiculous it is for this

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person to be writing books on

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consciousness to be teaching our

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children these ridiculous ideas that she

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can't defend in even the most basic way

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when I go to the dentist do I want him

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to think that the pain that I have from

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my wisdom tooth is part and parcel of my

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brain let's say or part of my peripheral

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nervous system the answer is yes so on

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one level if we are matter what is the

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matter my point being is what's the

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problem if we are just the brain because

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physics itself like matter itself is

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more mysterious in a weird way the

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spirit even describes stay with us for

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welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Alex Karras and on this

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episode a show that's really more about

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process than it is about content if you

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will not that our guest doesn't have a

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lot of interesting ideas and content to

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say he certainly does but I think what

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this interview is really about is the

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process by which we go about debating

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the topics that we talk about here on

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skeptic oh now a few episodes back I

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published my interview with dr. Patricia

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Churchland a philosopher a professor of

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philosophy at University of California

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San Diego a well-known figure in the

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consciousness community also someone

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that skeptics and atheists like to point

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to as a credible academic that supports

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their position that interview created

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quite a stir because of dr. Churchland

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performance in her inability to examine

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really any challenge to her ideas now

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today's interview is quite different

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than that dr. David Lane as you'll hear

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was initially supportive of dr.

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Churchland position but in this

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interview you'll hear from someone who

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is truly open to examining and

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re-examining the data based on the best

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evidence that he can get his hands on

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it's refreshing to hear it's an

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interview I enjoy doing and I hope you

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enjoy listening to it today we welcome

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dr. David C Lane to skeptic Oh dr. lane

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is professor of philosophy at Mount San

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Antonio College in the LA area and a

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lecturer and religious studies at Cal

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State Long Beach he hosts the neural

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surfer website a site that has a tag

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line where The Skeptical meets the

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mystical we're gonna have to ask and

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he's done some amazing work exposing

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new-age cults I mean the kind of work

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that made him a target for those groups

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where he's getting death threats at

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night so this is another interesting

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thing we can talk about and then the

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real main reason I wanted to have

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Avon is because he recently posted an

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essay defending his friend dr. Patricia

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Churchland who as many of you know

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appeared on skeptic Oh a few episodes

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ago and had some interesting things to

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say about near-death experience science

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so we have a lot to talk about I think

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it ought to be really fun and

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interesting I've had a nice email

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exchange with dr. Lane he seems like a

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really nice guy who I'd like but we're

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probably gonna butt heads and some

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buddies as well I first want to start

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just by thanking you Dave so much for

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joining me and coming on skeptic oh oh

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face you don't also thanks for reading

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the article because it's always kind of

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nice to get feedback so I appreciate you

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doing that absolutely that's I I love

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the the Internet in the community that

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we create and being able to link up with

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people that you didn't know and suddenly

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you're reading each other stuff and

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getting into each other's world a little

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bit it's a wonderful world we live in

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let's start with this why don't you fill

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in some of the details of your bio that

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I just sketched out and kind of flush

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that out for people a little bit well

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I've been a professor of philosophy at

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Mount San Antonio College for about 25 I

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may be going for my 26 year prior to

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that I used to teach at the University

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of California at San Diego

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in Warren college yeah there's number of

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colleges at UCSD I was in Warren College

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I was teaching writing English 1a 1b and

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at the time I was giving my PhD in the

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sociology of knowledge and my interest

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has always been interested ly enough

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he's been Indian philosophy or Indian

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religions and so after that I had a

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number of teaching jobs I talked to the

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California School of Professional

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Psychology Palomar College and also at

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Cal State Long Beach I also you made me

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remember this in Del Mar perhaps not

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about 20 years ago there used to be a

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little kind of a funky school called the

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University University of humanistic

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studies which was really about

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parapsychology about the paranormal and

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people got their mas or PhDs there and I

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taught there in the latter part of the I

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think was a late 80s early part of the

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1990s and my wife Andrea is also a

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professor of philosophy she got her PhD

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at UC Santa Barbara although she did our

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undergraduate you'll find this

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interesting

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a UCSD and it used to be a research

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assistant 2 vs Ramachandran you know the

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very famous neuroscientist so Wow quite

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a lot of brainpower in that family yeah

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what definitely my wife's definitely

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smarter than I well played well played

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weather yeah so tell us a little bit

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about I love this tag line where The

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Skeptical meets the mystical well you

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know for it from when I was young about

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10 or 11 years old

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I was really into baseball and it must

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have been in the early 1960s and I

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walked into the North Hollywood Public

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Library and I saw one that will read

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about Yogi Berra now show you how stupid

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I was I saw this book called

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autobiography of a yogi' well and I

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thought well made this about Yogi Berra

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thought I saw the cover of course and

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it's about Yogananda sort of very young

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age I got interested in alternative

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spirituality different than the Roman

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Catholic faith I was brought up into so

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I read that book when I was 11 and I got

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very interested on a spiritual quest so

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I read every single thing I could

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possibly read from in high school

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whatever and then eventually what

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happened was I spoke in tongues of all

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things glossolalia when I was 15 years

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old and it was such a transformative

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experience that it kind of opened my

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eyes up to alternative realities even if

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I have a different you know neurological

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explanation speaking in tongues later at

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the time that was very mystical so I

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think ventually get interested in India

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I go on a research project at the age of

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22 with Professor Jergens mine out of

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Berkeley to go study North Indian gurus

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and my job because I was pretty good at

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baseball cards I just transferred it

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over to guru cards if you get my drift

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here and I developed a huge genealogical

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tree of these gurus who practice

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literally conscious near-death

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experiences so they do a technique

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called Shabet yoga so I had to go track

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these guys down interview them it's

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fascinating stuff but right prior to

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doing that in my undergraduate days at

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Cal State Northridge I did a term paper

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and you may have known about this about

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Eckankar which is a group founded by

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Paul Twitchell back in 1965 so this is

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how old are you now David and your way

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out good student what happened is yeah

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I'm a great when I did that paper

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on Eckankar 20 let's say by the time I'm

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22 I've been invited to go to India I

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then go into Berkeley to get my master's

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degree under Jirga smart at the Graduate

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theological Union I go to India at the

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age of 22 it's what happens so I'm

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really interested in spirituality really

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interested in this kind of stuff but and

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you can imagine it's a good analogy or

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metaphor is The Wizard of Oz you know

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you really believe the wizard you really

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think he has the power and then all of a

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sudden because you get in the inside

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glimpse you start to pull the curtain

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and you see that there's you know more

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mundane things happening and so when I

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did this guru study in India and I've

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been to India eight times I saw behind

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the curtain and I saw a lot of things

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that a lot of people didn't know so if

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you keep made me it almost it made me

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much more skeptical as the years

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progressed if that makes any sense so

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but I'm kind of a contradiction of terms

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to quote Errol Flynn who happens to be

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like one of my favorite movie stars

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wonderful book called my wicked wicked

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ways he says I'm an octagon of

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contradictions which in itself may be no

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contradiction and I kind of the same way

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because people get irritated with me

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because on one side I'm still that young

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boy who's seeking and in the other side

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I'm kind of that jaded skeptic who's

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seen too much very good very good so I

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kind of missed I kind of directed you

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away from this other interesting topic

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that I want you to talk about a little

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bit your book exposing cults when the

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skeptical mind confronts the mystical

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and it's quite a story right yeah

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because what happens is at the age of

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twenty I do its term paper on acting car

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and it's supposed to be ten pages but it

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balloons up to about 120 150 pages

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because I find out that Paul Twitchell

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had plagiarized his sacred writings

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let's say okay look can you back up tell

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people who he is and who he how

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prominent he still is today and yeah

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right right Paul Twitchell was used to

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it's kind of a religious secret he's

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from Paducah Kentucky he in the early

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1960s he starts his his group called

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eckankar now Eckankar is it's a Punjabi

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word which really means one guy but

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he'll change that later but he starts

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his group in the 60s where a lot of

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groups are started you know and he

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starts it actually in San Diego he then

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eventually moves it to Las Vegas

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what's the goal of the group is to have

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conscious out-of-body experiences he was

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influenced well we think he's influenced

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by four major factors he used to be a

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press agent from L ron Hubbard's and

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Scientology he was associated with

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self-realization fellowship

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Yogananda he was also a member of Kirpal

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Singh's group rou-ha-nee satsang and he

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was also connected to theosophy or at

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least influenced by theosophy so when I

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did my term paper I found out a lot of

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things that people didn't know I'm kind

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of really naive at the time so I'd do

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the term paper I sent it to eken cars

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headquarters which used to be in Menlo

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Park and twitch was now dead he died in

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1971 and so they write me back a couple

270
00:10:55,340 --> 00:10:53,910
months later my mom's kind of teary

271
00:10:57,380 --> 00:10:55,350
because she gets this registered letter

272
00:10:59,270 --> 00:10:57,390
from the San Francisco attorney saying

273
00:11:02,540 --> 00:10:59,280
they're gonna sue me because you've

274
00:11:04,310 --> 00:11:02,550
exposed just blatant plagiarism here

275
00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:04,320
that it's kind of undeniable at this

276
00:11:07,850 --> 00:11:05,970
point right you would think you would

277
00:11:09,290 --> 00:11:07,860
think so and also he'd lied about his

278
00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:09,300
life you know he claimed he was born in

279
00:11:14,210 --> 00:11:11,970
1922 he had a young wife and as far as

280
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:14,220
we can tell he's born in 1909 he also

281
00:11:17,630 --> 00:11:15,810
claims to have traveled to India there's

282
00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:17,640
no evidence that he actually did he

283
00:11:21,380 --> 00:11:19,170
claims that he meets some represent ours

284
00:11:23,180 --> 00:11:21,390
a 500 year old Tibetan monk there's no

285
00:11:25,100 --> 00:11:23,190
evidence that exists so he's kind of

286
00:11:28,430 --> 00:11:25,110
creates a religious mythology if you get

287
00:11:31,190 --> 00:11:28,440
my drift to kind of hide his real Theo

288
00:11:33,050 --> 00:11:31,200
pannu city or his real past and so I

289
00:11:35,210 --> 00:11:33,060
tried to uncover that to show what his

290
00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:35,220
historical life was really like versus

291
00:11:39,890 --> 00:11:37,530
his mythology that he's you know created

292
00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:39,900
and because I did that Eckankar was

293
00:11:43,790 --> 00:11:42,210
really irritated and what happened is

294
00:11:46,370 --> 00:11:43,800
some guy got a hold of my term paper and

295
00:11:48,500 --> 00:11:46,380
then bicycle dit or copied it throughout

296
00:11:50,390 --> 00:11:48,510
the United States in Europe and it

297
00:11:52,130 --> 00:11:50,400
caused a huge stir and I got death

298
00:11:54,530 --> 00:11:52,140
threats and people want to kill me and

299
00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:54,540
sue me and blah blah blah so that just

300
00:11:57,710 --> 00:11:56,130
started it and then of course there's

301
00:12:01,310 --> 00:11:57,720
all these other groups that happened

302
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:01,320
later on amazing I mean that really does

303
00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:03,810
kind of fill in the background quite a

304
00:12:10,580 --> 00:12:07,290
unique perspective you bring to this as

305
00:12:12,050 --> 00:12:10,590
you said so I don't know I we could talk

306
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:12,060
about that for a long time I did send

307
00:12:16,730 --> 00:12:14,130
you a link to another show I've done on

308
00:12:18,860 --> 00:12:16,740
the cult phenomena I think it's it's

309
00:12:21,620 --> 00:12:18,870
fascinating and I think the intersection

310
00:12:23,860 --> 00:12:21,630
with a lot of the consciousness research

311
00:12:26,060 --> 00:12:23,870
that I've been looking at is as

312
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:26,070
undeniable and exotic

313
00:12:30,050 --> 00:12:27,930
explored and kind of like this dark

314
00:12:32,330 --> 00:12:30,060
little alley that no one quite wants to

315
00:12:35,450 --> 00:12:32,340
go down no matter which side you're on

316
00:12:37,700 --> 00:12:35,460
but I do want to move off of that if I

317
00:12:40,970 --> 00:12:37,710
can because of course and the time we

318
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:40,980
have I really want to focus in on this

319
00:12:48,410 --> 00:12:44,130
essay that you posted in a real-world

320
00:12:51,950 --> 00:12:48,420
jot net website right idled the material

321
00:12:55,460 --> 00:12:51,960
basis of near-death experiences and it's

322
00:12:58,070 --> 00:12:55,470
a direct kind of I don't know it's a

323
00:13:00,350 --> 00:12:58,080
summation and a rebuttal to this

324
00:13:03,470 --> 00:13:00,360
interview that I had with Patricia

325
00:13:07,010 --> 00:13:03,480
Churchland about near-death experiences

326
00:13:08,540 --> 00:13:07,020
in your understanding of how that kind

327
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:08,550
of went off the rails or wherever it did

328
00:13:12,770 --> 00:13:11,010
tell us why you wrote it and and what

329
00:13:13,820 --> 00:13:12,780
you write think write it no that's good

330
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:13,830
let me give you a little background

331
00:13:17,930 --> 00:13:15,930
cause it'll kind of help when I went to

332
00:13:20,300 --> 00:13:17,940
UCSD I to Regis fellowship to get my PhD

333
00:13:22,490 --> 00:13:20,310
in 84 they also gave me a teaching job I

334
00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:22,500
think at that same year if I'm not

335
00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:24,690
mistaken Patricia Churchland and Paul

336
00:13:29,210 --> 00:13:26,880
Churchland came to UCSD they were

337
00:13:30,980 --> 00:13:29,220
considered really hot professors right

338
00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:30,990
and remember I'm just in graduate school

339
00:13:34,970 --> 00:13:33,570
and trying to get my PhD well I'm

340
00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:34,980
teaching this writing class and I have a

341
00:13:38,630 --> 00:13:36,480
friend of mine who I met it was now a

342
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:38,640
surfer I mean it was surfer then but

343
00:13:43,490 --> 00:13:40,410
he's now in Australia named Tom Wagoner

344
00:13:45,290 --> 00:13:43,500
and he was taking my class and purchased

345
00:13:48,020 --> 00:13:45,300
a church Chile's class at the same time

346
00:13:49,430 --> 00:13:48,030
and he would come in and tell me about

347
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:49,440
her neural philosophy you know a couple

348
00:13:52,730 --> 00:13:50,610
years later she will write that very

349
00:13:54,500 --> 00:13:52,740
famous textbook called neural philosophy

350
00:13:55,940 --> 00:13:54,510
because she's basically the progenitor

351
00:13:57,230 --> 00:13:55,950
of this idea that you can't do

352
00:13:59,570 --> 00:13:57,240
philosophy without studying the brain

353
00:14:01,600 --> 00:13:59,580
well watch where I'm coming from I'm

354
00:14:04,190 --> 00:14:01,610
coming from like a ramana maharshi

355
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:04,200
consciousness first principle that you

356
00:14:08,090 --> 00:14:05,850
can't understand consciousness without

357
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:08,100
being conscious if you get my drift you

358
00:14:11,390 --> 00:14:09,330
have to it's almost John Searles notion

359
00:14:13,970 --> 00:14:11,400
that you have to do first-person

360
00:14:16,730 --> 00:14:13,980
subjectivity and a third-person analysis

361
00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:16,740
will just not capture it so he comes in

362
00:14:19,940 --> 00:14:18,240
tells me that Churchland says you're

363
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:19,950
just three pounds of glorious wonder me

364
00:14:24,350 --> 00:14:21,930
you're just the brain and I'm an

365
00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:24,360
arrogant sob at the time that's [\h__\h]

366
00:14:28,820 --> 00:14:26,850
you go tell her this so I tell her the

367
00:14:29,930 --> 00:14:28,830
Ramana Maharshi idea but you know who's

368
00:14:31,670 --> 00:14:29,940
asking the question where's

369
00:14:33,410 --> 00:14:31,680
consciousness and all that and he would

370
00:14:35,660 --> 00:14:33,420
come back and I don't know if he told

371
00:14:37,100 --> 00:14:35,670
Churchill and who I was I just I would

372
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:37,110
imagine he didn't he would probably just

373
00:14:39,950 --> 00:14:38,850
raised his hand and said I got some some

374
00:14:41,390 --> 00:14:39,960
nutty English teacher

375
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:41,400
is telling me that there's something

376
00:14:46,370 --> 00:14:43,680
more beyond the brain and she would just

377
00:14:47,750 --> 00:14:46,380
lacerate my response now if this would

378
00:14:50,270 --> 00:14:47,760
go back and forth during the whole

379
00:14:52,550 --> 00:14:50,280
quarter at UCSD so I was I knew about

380
00:14:54,590 --> 00:14:52,560
her work and so I was fascinated and I

381
00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:54,600
had this kind of perverse mentality of

382
00:14:59,900 --> 00:14:57,570
wanting to understand the opposite of

383
00:15:01,580 --> 00:14:59,910
what I believe so when she came out with

384
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:01,590
neural philosophy and Paul Churchill II

385
00:15:04,580 --> 00:15:02,490
came out with matter and consciousness

386
00:15:05,990 --> 00:15:04,590
and the engine the see the soul and all

387
00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:06,000
that I just became obsessed about

388
00:15:10,730 --> 00:15:09,090
reading their books so in 1990 and this

389
00:15:14,750 --> 00:15:10,740
will all set up why I responded the way

390
00:15:16,370 --> 00:15:14,760
I did in 1990 a student of mine Meredith

391
00:15:18,170 --> 00:15:16,380
Doran she's now a professor I think of

392
00:15:20,210 --> 00:15:18,180
French literature at Penn State real

393
00:15:22,820 --> 00:15:20,220
bright student and interested in

394
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:22,830
spiritual realities wanted to interview

395
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:23,730
because we're doing a thing called

396
00:15:27,710 --> 00:15:25,370
Plato's cave which is a journal on

397
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:27,720
philosophers she wanted to interview a

398
00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:29,370
female philosopher and as you know

399
00:15:34,430 --> 00:15:31,710
they're relatively rare I mean famous

400
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:34,440
ones so I said hey interview Patricia

401
00:15:37,340 --> 00:15:35,130
Churchland

402
00:15:38,540 --> 00:15:37,350
so she calls her in the fall they have a

403
00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:38,550
long interview it's published I think

404
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:40,710
it's on intrical world as well it was

405
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:42,890
called the neural basis of consciousness

406
00:15:47,420 --> 00:15:44,850
glorious piece of meat the Dalai Lama

407
00:15:48,410 --> 00:15:47,430
and she does a really nice interview

408
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:48,420
because you know as Churchill it's a

409
00:15:51,980 --> 00:15:49,770
hardcore materialist and she takes

410
00:15:53,990 --> 00:15:51,990
eliminative materialism reduces it down

411
00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:54,000
to the brain so we published that and I

412
00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:55,920
thought it's a good interview so what

413
00:16:00,230 --> 00:15:57,810
happens is I become kind of a churchand

414
00:16:03,230 --> 00:16:00,240
aficionado because I study all her stuff

415
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:03,240
and read her blogs and all that so about

416
00:16:05,900 --> 00:16:04,650
must one's to two weeks ago when your

417
00:16:08,090 --> 00:16:05,910
interview came when did you interview

418
00:16:10,850 --> 00:16:08,100
come out and the end of January

419
00:16:12,860 --> 00:16:10,860
beginning of February 2014 fair enough I

420
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:12,870
hadn't even heard of it but what

421
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:14,610
happened is I started getting flooded

422
00:16:19,550 --> 00:16:16,770
with people tell me about this interview

423
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:19,560
and people irritated at me because I had

424
00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:21,210
quoted Churchland you know I've made a

425
00:16:25,010 --> 00:16:22,800
couple movies related to her philosophy

426
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:25,020
and one guy in particular I think those

427
00:16:28,370 --> 00:16:26,610
guys from Germany goes you should never

428
00:16:30,050 --> 00:16:28,380
court Churchill and again read this

429
00:16:31,610 --> 00:16:30,060
interviewing and then I got somebody on

430
00:16:34,190 --> 00:16:31,620
radhaswami studies which is a yahoo

431
00:16:36,470 --> 00:16:34,200
forum that we do and a good guy a guy

432
00:16:37,940 --> 00:16:36,480
highly respect man jet is his username

433
00:16:40,460 --> 00:16:37,950
he says you've got to check this thing

434
00:16:42,530 --> 00:16:40,470
out so I looked at the interview and I

435
00:16:44,270 --> 00:16:42,540
said oh wow and I think when you first

436
00:16:46,430 --> 00:16:44,280
posted the interview the transcript

437
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:46,440
wasn't fully there if I'm not mistaken

438
00:16:50,690 --> 00:16:49,050
or maybe it was but I wanted to listen

439
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:50,700
to the interview so I did that and then

440
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:52,170
I got kind of excited though this isn't

441
00:16:56,180 --> 00:16:53,490
the interesting thing

442
00:17:01,130 --> 00:16:56,190
but then I realized I better go read pin

443
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:01,140
is a pin Van LOM all lamang seven van

444
00:17:05,299 --> 00:17:03,810
llama llama Kayla llama I said I gotta

445
00:17:07,579 --> 00:17:05,309
go read his original study cuz that's

446
00:17:09,710 --> 00:17:07,589
what she quotes in Lancet so I did that

447
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:09,720
and then I analyzed it I said what

448
00:17:13,939 --> 00:17:11,250
really goes on here was she really

449
00:17:15,620 --> 00:17:13,949
scared of Alex which I can't imagine she

450
00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:15,630
would because she would have to expect

451
00:17:20,870 --> 00:17:18,510
right that people are gonna be doubtful

452
00:17:22,189 --> 00:17:20,880
that were just the brain that Indies are

453
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:22,199
just the brain so I did that my little

454
00:17:25,809 --> 00:17:23,730
analysis that was the reason I did it I

455
00:17:28,189 --> 00:17:25,819
got kind of excited that was fun

456
00:17:30,770 --> 00:17:28,199
awesome like I said at the beginning I

457
00:17:32,180 --> 00:17:30,780
mean the opportunity to engage a guy

458
00:17:34,580 --> 00:17:32,190
like you and me Cheers

459
00:17:36,770 --> 00:17:34,590
is super so whatever comes out of it I'm

460
00:17:38,570 --> 00:17:36,780
already for the better but I want to dig

461
00:17:40,669 --> 00:17:38,580
into that and I think we can have a real

462
00:17:41,630 --> 00:17:40,679
productive interesting discussion about

463
00:17:43,870 --> 00:17:41,640
what you've written

464
00:17:47,180 --> 00:17:43,880
okay Leon in the essay you write this

465
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:47,190
church lence materialistic view that

466
00:17:51,860 --> 00:17:49,170
consciousness is a product of the brain

467
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:51,870
was touching a very sensitive nerve

468
00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:55,050
affects those who hold the consciousness

469
00:18:00,080 --> 00:17:57,690
cannot be materially reduced to the

470
00:18:03,049 --> 00:18:00,090
substratum of our central nervous system

471
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:03,059
now I find this fascinating because I

472
00:18:09,620 --> 00:18:05,730
hear this kind of thing sometimes and it

473
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:09,630
seems to me like a very strange grief

474
00:18:16,070 --> 00:18:13,050
formulation of the issue I mean I think

475
00:18:18,590 --> 00:18:16,080
we all understand what is at stake here

476
00:18:20,690 --> 00:18:18,600
near-death experiences seeming to be

477
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:20,700
evidence that consciousness is not a

478
00:18:24,410 --> 00:18:22,170
product of the brain I mean that's

479
00:18:26,450 --> 00:18:24,420
what's on the table so it's a really big

480
00:18:28,940 --> 00:18:26,460
deal it would not only totally

481
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:28,950
revolutionize philosophy but science

482
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:32,250
Western thought in its entirety would be

483
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:34,890
shaken up if that was true so it's not

484
00:18:39,740 --> 00:18:37,650
our matter of touching a nerve it's

485
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:39,750
about trying to answer one of the most

486
00:18:45,260 --> 00:18:42,090
important scientific questions we could

487
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:45,270
answer and the problem with the

488
00:18:51,620 --> 00:18:48,690
interview is that Churchland is such a

489
00:18:53,870 --> 00:18:51,630
total lightweight when it comes to

490
00:18:55,790 --> 00:18:53,880
near-death experience research I mean

491
00:18:59,000 --> 00:18:55,800
she's just over her head from the

492
00:19:00,950 --> 00:18:59,010
beginning now Dave you're kind of open

493
00:19:02,570 --> 00:19:00,960
enough to admit that you don't even

494
00:19:05,810 --> 00:19:02,580
can't even pronounce

495
00:19:07,220 --> 00:19:05,820
dr. pin van llamas name right right he

496
00:19:09,169 --> 00:19:07,230
is quoting him

497
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:09,179
and doesn't know his work doesn't

498
00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:11,490
understand his work doesn't understand

499
00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:14,370
near-death experience science and the

500
00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:17,910
published research in general so I see

501
00:19:22,159 --> 00:19:19,710
somebody likes to come on strong with

502
00:19:23,210 --> 00:19:22,169
these ideas but as soon as you push back

503
00:19:25,250 --> 00:19:23,220
a little bit

504
00:19:27,260 --> 00:19:25,260
she just looks rather ridiculous and I

505
00:19:30,260 --> 00:19:27,270
think that's what happened but the way I

506
00:19:32,150 --> 00:19:30,270
look at it alex is I concede you're

507
00:19:34,060 --> 00:19:32,160
totally correct that I don't think she

508
00:19:36,020 --> 00:19:34,070
has a wide range of materials

509
00:19:37,940 --> 00:19:36,030
understanding indies i think that's

510
00:19:39,919 --> 00:19:37,950
obvious because for instance just this

511
00:19:43,789 --> 00:19:39,929
morning i watched one of the interviews

512
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:43,799
with vent lamang and I was fascinated

513
00:19:48,020 --> 00:19:45,570
because it was wonderful interview and

514
00:19:48,919 --> 00:19:48,030
he's very clear that he believes that

515
00:19:51,110 --> 00:19:48,929
NDEs

516
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:51,120
are trance neuronal he does not believe

517
00:19:53,659 --> 00:19:52,530
that they're part and parcel of the

518
00:19:57,620 --> 00:19:53,669
brain you're absolutely correct on that

519
00:20:00,289 --> 00:19:57,630
however looking at Churchill ins book as

520
00:20:03,650 --> 00:20:00,299
I had read touching the nerve I noticed

521
00:20:06,020 --> 00:20:03,660
that she only cites one study by him and

522
00:20:09,110 --> 00:20:06,030
his colleagues as you know and that's in

523
00:20:11,870 --> 00:20:09,120
Lancet if you look peer lis at The

524
00:20:13,789 --> 00:20:11,880
Lancet study you can see where she's

525
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:13,799
going I'm not Nautilus I'm not trying to

526
00:20:17,799 --> 00:20:16,290
justify her you can't justify it it's

527
00:20:20,900 --> 00:20:17,809
it's come on I mean let's be

528
00:20:23,150 --> 00:20:20,910
intellectually honest I mean that is the

529
00:20:25,310 --> 00:20:23,160
problem let me back up and fill in the

530
00:20:26,510 --> 00:20:25,320
details there for you for our listeners

531
00:20:28,580 --> 00:20:26,520
because you've already gone down this

532
00:20:32,090 --> 00:20:28,590
path and for those who don't know this

533
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:32,100
guy dr. PIM van Lommel is very highly

534
00:20:37,100 --> 00:20:34,890
regarded cardiologist in the Netherlands

535
00:20:39,890 --> 00:20:37,110
who really kind of stumbled across this

536
00:20:41,659 --> 00:20:39,900
near-death experience stuff early in his

537
00:20:43,490 --> 00:20:41,669
professional career and has he said

538
00:20:45,919 --> 00:20:43,500
since then is that many many

539
00:20:47,330 --> 00:20:45,929
cardiologists stumble across this you

540
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:47,340
have people who have a heart attack and

541
00:20:51,110 --> 00:20:49,290
they wake up the next day and they say

542
00:20:53,060 --> 00:20:51,120
doc you won't believe what I saw I was

543
00:20:54,230 --> 00:20:53,070
over the bed and you were resuscitating

544
00:20:56,299 --> 00:20:54,240
me and then I went and they tell the

545
00:20:58,880 --> 00:20:56,309
whole story and that happens a lot but

546
00:21:01,730 --> 00:20:58,890
this is a guy who for whatever reason

547
00:21:04,010 --> 00:21:01,740
just became you can relate to this

548
00:21:05,870 --> 00:21:04,020
basically your story he just became

549
00:21:08,530 --> 00:21:05,880
fascinated with this and he said wait a

550
00:21:10,549 --> 00:21:08,540
minute we got this is potentially

551
00:21:12,380 --> 00:21:10,559
earth-shattering we got to dig into this

552
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:12,390
and he started studying it very

553
00:21:17,419 --> 00:21:15,450
comprehensively 20 years at a variety at

554
00:21:19,610 --> 00:21:17,429
a bunch of hospitals that he linked

555
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:19,620
together across the Netherlands and then

556
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:21,090
as you alluded to

557
00:21:26,030 --> 00:21:24,210
published this groundbreaking study in

558
00:21:28,580 --> 00:21:26,040
The Lancet one of the most respected

559
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:28,590
medical journals in the world and he

560
00:21:33,650 --> 00:21:30,770
concluded and he said it in very kind of

561
00:21:35,930 --> 00:21:33,660
proper scientific terms but he basically

562
00:21:38,090 --> 00:21:35,940
said hey everything I've seen about

563
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:38,100
near-death experiences says that they're

564
00:21:43,490 --> 00:21:40,170
highly suggestive that consciousness is

565
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:43,500
not purely a function of the brain but

566
00:21:47,900 --> 00:21:45,690
here's the point that I guess you were

567
00:21:49,850 --> 00:21:47,910
kind of alluding to and I feel like

568
00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:49,860
we're kind of apologizing for Churchland

569
00:21:55,550 --> 00:21:51,840
in a way that we just can't do and

570
00:21:58,550 --> 00:21:55,560
that's that if you're going to engage in

571
00:22:02,180 --> 00:21:58,560
the near-death experience science you

572
00:22:05,060 --> 00:22:02,190
have to know that you can't say oh I

573
00:22:07,940 --> 00:22:05,070
picked a little phrase out of his Lancet

574
00:22:09,980 --> 00:22:07,950
study when the guy has written all these

575
00:22:12,650 --> 00:22:09,990
books as you just said has all these

576
00:22:15,380 --> 00:22:12,660
google videos you can watch is clearly

577
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:15,390
in this camp is good not in this camp

578
00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:18,090
here's a guy studied it for 20 years as

579
00:22:21,710 --> 00:22:20,130
a professional and said this is the only

580
00:22:23,630 --> 00:22:21,720
conclusion that's reasonable to come to

581
00:22:26,030 --> 00:22:23,640
sorry end of story

582
00:22:28,910 --> 00:22:26,040
you can't get this wrong if you're

583
00:22:31,850 --> 00:22:28,920
Patricia Churchland and you claim to be

584
00:22:33,950 --> 00:22:31,860
saying anything meaningful about

585
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:33,960
near-death experiences you can't blow it

586
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:36,330
like she did well see the way watch

587
00:22:38,990 --> 00:22:37,200
where I'm coming from

588
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:39,000
I'm not like watch how I was looking at

589
00:22:43,190 --> 00:22:41,010
this just so you understand I was trying

590
00:22:44,870 --> 00:22:43,200
to look at what Churchill was doing so

591
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:44,880
what I did is that with it the lancets

592
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:46,890
study and they go how in the hell could

593
00:22:50,450 --> 00:22:48,090
she have come up with this quote

594
00:22:52,430 --> 00:22:50,460
remember she makes this argument that's

595
00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:52,440
the contentious quote about there's a

596
00:22:57,380 --> 00:22:55,200
neurological basis to end e's and when i

597
00:23:00,410 --> 00:22:57,390
read this study you'll see where she did

598
00:23:02,090 --> 00:23:00,420
the page before she takes his study

599
00:23:03,410 --> 00:23:02,100
almost work by word remember if you

600
00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:03,420
looked at the page i think it's on page

601
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:06,240
70 she takes almost word by word the

602
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:08,730
summation of the guys study she then

603
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:10,770
says and this is the contentious line

604
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:13,650
and The Lancet study says and yet neuro

605
00:23:18,470 --> 00:23:16,170
physiological processes must play some

606
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:18,480
part in and EE so this is where I think

607
00:23:22,550 --> 00:23:20,730
if she only looked at The Lancet study

608
00:23:24,530 --> 00:23:22,560
what happens is she then

609
00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:24,540
over-exaggerates from that sentence

610
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:26,640
that's where you and I agree where I

611
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:29,370
disagree is I think she just looked at

612
00:23:32,300 --> 00:23:31,290
The Lancet study do you understand what

613
00:23:34,670 --> 00:23:32,310
I'm trying to say I mean that's what I

614
00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:34,680
think she did and you're correct

615
00:23:39,230 --> 00:23:36,510
to criticize her for not doing a wider

616
00:23:40,820 --> 00:23:39,240
range of materials but you can see what

617
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:40,830
that's the I think you notice on my

618
00:23:45,890 --> 00:23:44,250
addendum on the article I wrote did you

619
00:23:47,780 --> 00:23:45,900
see how I somebody's trying to justify

620
00:23:49,340 --> 00:23:47,790
that she'd misquoted them do you

621
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:49,350
remember this yeah and do you remember

622
00:23:53,540 --> 00:23:51,810
that she has this quote where somebody's

623
00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:53,550
mentioning and saying I think was this

624
00:23:58,550 --> 00:23:56,130
woman says it was really Dean mobs that

625
00:23:59,930 --> 00:23:58,560
she claims that she was quoting I don't

626
00:24:03,800 --> 00:23:59,940
know if Churchland wrote that letter or

627
00:24:04,730 --> 00:24:03,810
not she did okay if she did I'll be in

628
00:24:06,530 --> 00:24:04,740
your side on this one

629
00:24:07,670 --> 00:24:06,540
if she says that let's see I don't know

630
00:24:09,500 --> 00:24:07,680
because I didn't you know I don't know

631
00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:09,510
if it's her a fake letter let's say it

632
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:12,480
is if Churchland says that she made that

633
00:24:15,950 --> 00:24:13,410
mistake

634
00:24:18,380 --> 00:24:15,960
she's just went from the frying pan into

635
00:24:20,210 --> 00:24:18,390
the fire because that's ridiculous

636
00:24:22,730 --> 00:24:20,220
because it's not true

637
00:24:25,190 --> 00:24:22,740
because as I analyzes you can see in my

638
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:25,200
study I did a whole analysis and it's

639
00:24:29,750 --> 00:24:27,770
clear she's based on his Lancet study

640
00:24:32,180 --> 00:24:29,760
don't you think I mean would you agree

641
00:24:34,850 --> 00:24:32,190
with that well I would conclude that

642
00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:34,860
she's just a lightweight and she's

643
00:24:39,260 --> 00:24:37,320
confused and she doesn't and she doesn't

644
00:24:41,030 --> 00:24:39,270
know what she's talking about but in to

645
00:24:44,060 --> 00:24:41,040
fill people in a little bit so it's not

646
00:24:46,570 --> 00:24:44,070
total inside baseball here right after I

647
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:46,580
published the Churchland interview

648
00:24:53,630 --> 00:24:49,770
fortunately for me on skeptic oh I have

649
00:24:55,220 --> 00:24:53,640
a wide variety of viewpoints represented

650
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:55,230
in my listenership so a lot of people

651
00:24:59,360 --> 00:24:57,810
are very skeptical right they jumped on

652
00:25:01,900 --> 00:24:59,370
this interview and we're really trying

653
00:25:05,540 --> 00:25:01,910
to defend Churchland and one of those

654
00:25:07,370 --> 00:25:05,550
skeptical listeners sent sure actually a

655
00:25:09,830 --> 00:25:07,380
couple of them did but one of them sent

656
00:25:11,150 --> 00:25:09,840
her an email and said hey I heard this I

657
00:25:13,730 --> 00:25:11,160
think you just made a simple mistake

658
00:25:17,330 --> 00:25:13,740
right I think you were quoting the Deen

659
00:25:20,930 --> 00:25:17,340
mobs Carolyn want paper and that's the

660
00:25:23,780 --> 00:25:20,940
confusion and then dr. Churchland

661
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:23,790
emailed her back and said oh you're

662
00:25:27,890 --> 00:25:24,330
right

663
00:25:29,980 --> 00:25:27,900
gosh dang and she says dang D ing I hate

664
00:25:32,810 --> 00:25:29,990
when that happens I mean this is just

665
00:25:34,790 --> 00:25:32,820
mind-blowing Lee you know that's a

666
00:25:38,270 --> 00:25:34,800
mistake she needs to go back to her book

667
00:25:40,670 --> 00:25:38,280
look at The Lancet study look how she

668
00:25:43,100 --> 00:25:40,680
almost I mean I'm not saying plagiarism

669
00:25:46,430 --> 00:25:43,110
but she gets close to doing word by word

670
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:46,440
from his study then she you can almost

671
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:48,090
see why she does it because you

672
00:25:52,669 --> 00:25:50,010
number she then tries to explain the

673
00:25:55,340 --> 00:25:52,679
transformative experience in her own

674
00:25:57,590 --> 00:25:55,350
words because remember his study argues

675
00:26:00,519 --> 00:25:57,600
that the transformative experiences of

676
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:00,529
NDEs are different than drug-induced

677
00:26:04,399 --> 00:26:02,490
experiences remember she's trying to

678
00:26:07,010 --> 00:26:04,409
correlate drug-induced experiences with

679
00:26:09,350 --> 00:26:07,020
NDEs well he makes a very clear

680
00:26:11,870 --> 00:26:09,360
distinction between those things and so

681
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:11,880
if she's gonna do this it's gonna look a

682
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:14,730
lot worse on her because it's obvious

683
00:26:19,340 --> 00:26:16,890
she used his study as I pointed out in

684
00:26:21,500 --> 00:26:19,350
that in my analysis yeah and I think you

685
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:21,510
do a fair job of that a good job of that

686
00:26:27,100 --> 00:26:24,450
and a fair-minded job of that but dr.

687
00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:27,110
Lane I tell you what let's move off of

688
00:26:31,250 --> 00:26:29,370
near-death experience for a minute and

689
00:26:33,860 --> 00:26:31,260
it kind of the same ballpark and talk

690
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:33,870
about consciousness science in general

691
00:26:39,740 --> 00:26:36,570
because one of my kind of frustrations

692
00:26:41,930 --> 00:26:39,750
is that sometimes we get into all this

693
00:26:44,210 --> 00:26:41,940
focus about near-death experience

694
00:26:46,549 --> 00:26:44,220
science and it can leave the impression

695
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:46,559
that that's the main thing that's what

696
00:26:51,260 --> 00:26:48,090
we're really interested in and it's not

697
00:26:54,260 --> 00:26:51,270
for me for me it's about the implication

698
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:54,270
of near-death experience science for

699
00:26:57,950 --> 00:26:56,010
understanding this question that you've

700
00:26:59,779 --> 00:26:57,960
studied it sounds like your whole

701
00:27:02,269 --> 00:26:59,789
professional life really your whole

702
00:27:04,340 --> 00:27:02,279
adult life and that is consciousness and

703
00:27:07,250 --> 00:27:04,350
the reason we're so interested in

704
00:27:09,950 --> 00:27:07,260
near-death experience science is because

705
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:09,960
we have real science that comes back in

706
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:12,690
as providing hard evidence that this

707
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:14,850
assumption we've been making that

708
00:27:19,399 --> 00:27:17,010
consciousness is purely a product of the

709
00:27:21,980 --> 00:27:19,409
brain that somehow that is not correct

710
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:21,990
somehow there's more and even if we

711
00:27:26,990 --> 00:27:24,090
don't want to speculate how much more

712
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:27,000
global the consciousness or a big mind

713
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:29,610
or any spiritual thing we have to

714
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:32,610
confront the data that suggests hey

715
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:36,210
there is more so first off let me stop

716
00:27:41,419 --> 00:27:39,210
there and tell me what you think about

717
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:41,429
do you ascribe to the idea that

718
00:27:47,659 --> 00:27:45,090
consciousness is 100% brain based mind

719
00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:47,669
equals brain you know I honestly I am

720
00:27:52,220 --> 00:27:50,130
too stupid to make that kind of absolute

721
00:27:55,220 --> 00:27:52,230
conclusion I want to keep an open mind

722
00:27:57,100 --> 00:27:55,230
but I will tell you my bias my bias is

723
00:27:59,530 --> 00:27:57,110
that skeptics

724
00:28:01,720 --> 00:27:59,540
and like including people like Daniel

725
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:01,730
Dennett you know in Dawkins and the

726
00:28:06,370 --> 00:28:03,770
hardcores I think they're really doing

727
00:28:08,890 --> 00:28:06,380
us a huge favor because what they do is

728
00:28:10,420 --> 00:28:08,900
they not all the time granted they're

729
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:10,430
gonna make huge blunders and mistakes

730
00:28:14,050 --> 00:28:11,930
I'm not arguing that but what they are

731
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:14,060
basically saying is give me more

732
00:28:18,430 --> 00:28:17,090
evidence and I note in my own life that

733
00:28:20,380 --> 00:28:18,440
when people are skeptical I can that be

734
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:20,390
I can car or the John Roger Hinkins

735
00:28:25,150 --> 00:28:22,970
thing or the Sathya Sai Baba thing that

736
00:28:26,230 --> 00:28:25,160
happened people got pissed at me as you

737
00:28:27,970 --> 00:28:26,240
know I got death threats in everything

738
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:27,980
they said we want more evidence they

739
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:29,330
don't even believe the pointers in stem

740
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:31,250
and instead of seeing that as a negative

741
00:28:36,550 --> 00:28:34,010
I see it as a positive because if

742
00:28:39,820 --> 00:28:36,560
consciousness indeed transcends the

743
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:39,830
brain then no materialistic explanation

744
00:28:44,230 --> 00:28:42,170
will be sufficient to explain it

745
00:28:46,150 --> 00:28:44,240
therefore neuroscience is going to end

746
00:28:48,730 --> 00:28:46,160
up heading into a pistol illogical

747
00:28:51,100 --> 00:28:48,740
cul-de-sac and get their ass kicked

748
00:28:53,770 --> 00:28:51,110
which is really good but if we don't let

749
00:28:57,130 --> 00:28:53,780
them place skepticism to their full a

750
00:28:59,620 --> 00:28:57,140
full arena then there's a danger because

751
00:29:03,550 --> 00:28:59,630
believers part of my language are cheap

752
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:03,560
[\h__\h] for the paranormal as youkai I'm

753
00:29:07,510 --> 00:29:05,210
sure you're aware that some people will

754
00:29:08,860 --> 00:29:07,520
believe anything like sathya sai pop is

755
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:08,870
probably the best example I can think up

756
00:29:12,580 --> 00:29:10,730
for 30 to 40 years I dealt with people

757
00:29:14,470 --> 00:29:12,590
telling me he had paranormal powers and

758
00:29:16,030 --> 00:29:14,480
as you perhaps have seen the study it

759
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:16,040
turns out he was a bad sleight of hand

760
00:29:20,470 --> 00:29:18,410
magician or John Roger Hinkins who is

761
00:29:22,570 --> 00:29:20,480
the founder of MSI a who robbed my house

762
00:29:24,250 --> 00:29:22,580
we will go in the detail there he was

763
00:29:25,780 --> 00:29:24,260
apparently psychic I knew the guy and he

764
00:29:27,370 --> 00:29:25,790
was telling me things I I was thinking

765
00:29:28,750 --> 00:29:27,380
about in the bathroom because I was kind

766
00:29:32,290 --> 00:29:28,760
of talking out loud well it turns out he

767
00:29:34,660 --> 00:29:32,300
wired his entire house so the skeptic is

768
00:29:38,050 --> 00:29:34,670
good in this sense because he's made

769
00:29:40,420 --> 00:29:38,060
sense in that sense but then that

770
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:40,430
parameter they're saying up your game

771
00:29:45,190 --> 00:29:43,130
and I think what's exciting about this

772
00:29:47,260 --> 00:29:45,200
is that you're getting these medical

773
00:29:48,850 --> 00:29:47,270
these neurosurgeons like that that new

774
00:29:51,730 --> 00:29:48,860
book that railways been out for a while

775
00:29:54,130 --> 00:29:51,740
called proof of heaven by Evan Alexander

776
00:29:56,530 --> 00:29:54,140
you got people with you know incredible

777
00:29:58,900 --> 00:29:56,540
interesting reputations and credentials

778
00:30:00,670 --> 00:29:58,910
smart people who are basically saying

779
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:00,680
that consciousness transcends the brain

780
00:30:04,300 --> 00:30:02,570
well even Sam Harris

781
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:04,310
you know Sam Harris has got a new book

782
00:30:08,110 --> 00:30:05,810
coming out called waking up in which

783
00:30:09,529 --> 00:30:08,120
he's talking about the meditation and

784
00:30:11,450 --> 00:30:09,539
things of that nature he

785
00:30:14,769 --> 00:30:11,460
even argues against Dennett in

786
00:30:17,419 --> 00:30:14,779
Churchland and says you cannot explain

787
00:30:19,190 --> 00:30:17,429
consciousness the way you think you are

788
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:19,200
he argues that they're not he says

789
00:30:22,279 --> 00:30:21,090
consciousness is this almost an effort

790
00:30:24,019 --> 00:30:22,289
of both a even though he may say it's

791
00:30:26,479 --> 00:30:24,029
part of the brain yeah but he's just

792
00:30:28,460 --> 00:30:26,489
slide he's just trying to slide into

793
00:30:30,229 --> 00:30:28,470
this middle position and I think quite

794
00:30:32,749 --> 00:30:30,239
in exchange with him that it is a

795
00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:32,759
nowhere position it's like this you know

796
00:30:37,489 --> 00:30:34,710
I'm not a Christian I'm not as an

797
00:30:40,669 --> 00:30:37,499
atheist I'll be an agnostic which is

798
00:30:43,129 --> 00:30:40,679
nothing no one lays their head on the

799
00:30:45,859 --> 00:30:43,139
pillow at night and says gee you know I

800
00:30:47,810 --> 00:30:45,869
don't believe anything you go one way or

801
00:30:50,810 --> 00:30:47,820
another it's the famous South Park

802
00:30:52,879 --> 00:30:50,820
episode captured that well you know

803
00:30:54,619 --> 00:30:52,889
maybe maybe though honestly though you

804
00:30:55,849 --> 00:30:54,629
know I was taken of Edward Wilson it's

805
00:30:56,629 --> 00:30:55,859
kind of an exaggeration you know we

806
00:30:58,669 --> 00:30:56,639
weren't very famous book called

807
00:31:00,859 --> 00:30:58,679
consilience he's the emeritus professor

808
00:31:02,419 --> 00:31:00,869
of biology at Harvard and he argued

809
00:31:04,149 --> 00:31:02,429
about the triune brain now obviously the

810
00:31:06,499 --> 00:31:04,159
triune brain is kind of an overstated

811
00:31:08,450 --> 00:31:06,509
reductionism but I kind of noticed the

812
00:31:09,950 --> 00:31:08,460
same thing in myself there's this top

813
00:31:11,779 --> 00:31:09,960
part of my brain we'll call he called it

814
00:31:14,359 --> 00:31:11,789
the heartless part of yourself the

815
00:31:16,279 --> 00:31:14,369
cerebral cortex and it's kind of

816
00:31:17,919 --> 00:31:16,289
rational and kind of skeptical and kind

817
00:31:20,479 --> 00:31:17,929
of thing and the mid part of my brain is

818
00:31:22,190 --> 00:31:20,489
you know the emotional mammalian

819
00:31:23,389 --> 00:31:22,200
structure and then of course the lower

820
00:31:25,549 --> 00:31:23,399
part of the brain which is probably the

821
00:31:27,739 --> 00:31:25,559
most powerful the reptilian stem and I

822
00:31:30,469 --> 00:31:27,749
notice with myself that there's this

823
00:31:31,700 --> 00:31:30,479
emotional believe inside who really

824
00:31:33,169 --> 00:31:31,710
thinks there might be something beyond

825
00:31:35,359 --> 00:31:33,179
the body in the mind and is open to it

826
00:31:38,599 --> 00:31:35,369
and then there's that Spock part of my

827
00:31:40,310 --> 00:31:38,609
side data side that goes I [\h__\h] we

828
00:31:41,749 --> 00:31:40,320
kind of know you're just the brain Dave

829
00:31:43,909 --> 00:31:41,759
that's why nobody hits himself with a

830
00:31:45,619 --> 00:31:43,919
hammer or why you go to the doctor or a

831
00:31:47,749 --> 00:31:45,629
dentist and you have a root canal

832
00:31:50,149 --> 00:31:47,759
problem you think pain is really located

833
00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:50,159
in the brain so I I can understand why

834
00:31:52,820 --> 00:31:51,840
somebody could be of two minds does that

835
00:31:55,700 --> 00:31:52,830
make sense kind of you see where I'm

836
00:31:59,479 --> 00:31:55,710
going with this it does but that's why

837
00:32:01,430 --> 00:31:59,489
we need the rigor of science yes and we

838
00:32:03,979 --> 00:32:01,440
need to level the playing field I mean

839
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:03,989
part of the problem with the up your

840
00:32:09,859 --> 00:32:06,690
game kind of position that you're taking

841
00:32:14,149 --> 00:32:09,869
is that at this point the game has been

842
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:14,159
so rigged against anyone who challenges

843
00:32:19,970 --> 00:32:17,210
this scientific materialism that it's

844
00:32:22,249 --> 00:32:19,980
essentially impossible for anyone to go

845
00:32:22,710 --> 00:32:22,259
forward in any meaningful way on that

846
00:32:26,220 --> 00:32:22,720
now I

847
00:32:28,049 --> 00:32:26,230
250 shows to back up what I'm talking

848
00:32:31,409 --> 00:32:28,059
about there so I'll just kind of leave

849
00:32:32,970 --> 00:32:31,419
it at that but I way of reinforcing that

850
00:32:35,310 --> 00:32:32,980
I guess I'd come back to your article

851
00:32:36,539 --> 00:32:35,320
and and maybe dig into this

852
00:32:37,980 --> 00:32:36,549
consciousness thing because another

853
00:32:40,340 --> 00:32:37,990
interesting quote from there that I was

854
00:32:43,919 --> 00:32:40,350
gonna beat you up a little bit about

855
00:32:46,470 --> 00:32:43,929
suggest that I conflate Churchland

856
00:32:49,500 --> 00:32:46,480
nuanced understanding of consciousness

857
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:49,510
with my own caricatures of Daniel

858
00:32:56,610 --> 00:32:53,530
Dennett and Richard Dawkins explain to

859
00:33:00,060 --> 00:32:56,620
me what you think are the nuances of

860
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:00,070
that consciousness that I'm not getting

861
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:03,330
through Daniel Dennett who famously said

862
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:06,370
consciousness is an illusion and Richard

863
00:33:12,210 --> 00:33:09,370
Dawkins who famously said were

864
00:33:14,460 --> 00:33:12,220
biological robots I don't think those

865
00:33:17,460 --> 00:33:14,470
are caricatures I think that's what

866
00:33:19,230 --> 00:33:17,470
those guys really think or they might

867
00:33:21,029 --> 00:33:19,240
but you remember you were interviewing

868
00:33:22,919 --> 00:33:21,039
Churchland and if you remember

869
00:33:25,020 --> 00:33:22,929
Churchland corrects you at that point

870
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:25,030
and says well that's not my view and

871
00:33:28,710 --> 00:33:26,650
then she explained that regardless of

872
00:33:30,330 --> 00:33:28,720
whether we accept review I think if you

873
00:33:31,649 --> 00:33:30,340
really wanted to understand her view

874
00:33:34,230 --> 00:33:31,659
it's almost like even somebody along

875
00:33:36,750 --> 00:33:34,240
noose around their neck or a long rope

876
00:33:38,250 --> 00:33:36,760
that was what I was commenting on I was

877
00:33:39,690 --> 00:33:38,260
basically alright I'm not arguing that

878
00:33:40,950 --> 00:33:39,700
Dawkins doesn't say that or denna didn't

879
00:33:42,750 --> 00:33:40,960
say I was simply saying that Churchill

880
00:33:43,740 --> 00:33:42,760
and he corrects that view what I was

881
00:33:45,180 --> 00:33:43,750
pointing out David when we were just

882
00:33:48,210 --> 00:33:45,190
talking about this about Sam Harris a

883
00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:48,220
minute ago is these guys like Churchland

884
00:33:51,180 --> 00:33:49,510
who've already said as a lightweight who

885
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:51,190
doesn't know what she's talking about on

886
00:33:57,659 --> 00:33:54,690
this topic is trying to slither her way

887
00:34:00,360 --> 00:33:57,669
into this emergent property of

888
00:34:02,460 --> 00:34:00,370
consciousness without any clue of what

889
00:34:04,860 --> 00:34:02,470
that means so as soon as she's pressed

890
00:34:07,890 --> 00:34:04,870
with well what does emergent property of

891
00:34:09,869 --> 00:34:07,900
the brain mean dr. Churchland when does

892
00:34:11,849 --> 00:34:09,879
consciousness begin when does it end

893
00:34:14,369 --> 00:34:11,859
what is necessary and sufficient to

894
00:34:16,109 --> 00:34:14,379
cause consciousness our dog's conscious

895
00:34:17,669 --> 00:34:16,119
are these cats were running around my

896
00:34:20,129 --> 00:34:17,679
office cousin all this commotion are

897
00:34:22,379 --> 00:34:20,139
they conscious is a rock conscious she

898
00:34:24,780 --> 00:34:22,389
doesn't have in she doesn't even have

899
00:34:27,270 --> 00:34:24,790
the beginnings of an answer to that and

900
00:34:30,359 --> 00:34:27,280
yet she wants to put forward this idea

901
00:34:32,250 --> 00:34:30,369
that she has somehow moved past Daniel

902
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:32,260
Dennett and Richard Dawkins in what way

903
00:34:36,119 --> 00:34:34,690
have you moved past well I mean it comes

904
00:34:37,979 --> 00:34:36,129
down to a question do you want

905
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:37,989
yummy are you doing an interview to kind

906
00:34:41,460 --> 00:34:39,729
of have a debate with her or you have an

907
00:34:43,259 --> 00:34:41,470
interview for her to elaborate her

908
00:34:45,329 --> 00:34:43,269
viewpoint these aren't going with us

909
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:45,339
because having an interview with her to

910
00:34:51,329 --> 00:34:49,210
expose how ridiculous it is for this

911
00:34:53,579 --> 00:34:51,339
person to be writing books on

912
00:34:56,879 --> 00:34:53,589
consciousness to be teaching our

913
00:35:00,839 --> 00:34:56,889
children these ridiculous ideas that she

914
00:35:03,569 --> 00:35:00,849
can't defend in in even the most basic

915
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:03,579
way I'm just calling the emperor has no

916
00:35:08,910 --> 00:35:06,970
clothes the entire idea that this

917
00:35:11,370 --> 00:35:08,920
consciousness is an illusion is just

918
00:35:13,140 --> 00:35:11,380
silliness that gets perpetuated and

919
00:35:16,109 --> 00:35:13,150
never gets challenged in any meaningful

920
00:35:18,390 --> 00:35:16,119
way I like you gotta be careful though

921
00:35:20,729 --> 00:35:18,400
because he with me is that you just want

922
00:35:22,799 --> 00:35:20,739
to be accurate to what she said did she

923
00:35:25,799 --> 00:35:22,809
really say consciousness was an illusion

924
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:25,809
herself and that you said that to her

925
00:35:28,890 --> 00:35:27,130
she said consciousness is an emergent

926
00:35:30,839 --> 00:35:28,900
property the gantt brain and I called

927
00:35:32,370 --> 00:35:30,849
around what kind of that's that what

928
00:35:34,259 --> 00:35:32,380
does that mean right and that's fine

929
00:35:35,849 --> 00:35:34,269
that's fair Katie but what I'm saying is

930
00:35:37,890 --> 00:35:35,859
you just want to be accurate to what she

931
00:35:39,390 --> 00:35:37,900
says not trying to you know create these

932
00:35:42,029 --> 00:35:39,400
characters yours that she can knock down

933
00:35:44,190 --> 00:35:42,039
as strong men because your argument

934
00:35:46,469 --> 00:35:44,200
would be stronger if you just take her

935
00:35:47,910 --> 00:35:46,479
own words that was really my analysis

936
00:35:49,259 --> 00:35:47,920
that I was giving it in the paper but

937
00:35:52,289 --> 00:35:49,269
let me push this a little differently

938
00:35:54,209 --> 00:35:52,299
let's let's just keep an open mind now

939
00:35:56,789 --> 00:35:54,219
would you agree I think we would agree

940
00:35:58,739 --> 00:35:56,799
that that certain parts of our

941
00:36:00,420 --> 00:35:58,749
consciousness clearly have some

942
00:36:02,910 --> 00:36:00,430
neurological correlations would you

943
00:36:05,039 --> 00:36:02,920
agree with that certainly same so yeah

944
00:36:06,029 --> 00:36:05,049
no they seem like okay so watch how many

945
00:36:09,059 --> 00:36:06,039
to go with this this is kind of the way

946
00:36:11,249 --> 00:36:09,069
I do it does when I go to the dentist do

947
00:36:13,589 --> 00:36:11,259
I want him to think that the pain that I

948
00:36:15,450 --> 00:36:13,599
have from my wisdom tooth is part and

949
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:15,460
parcel of my brain let's say or part of

950
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:17,170
my peripheral nervous system the answer

951
00:36:22,109 --> 00:36:19,930
is yes do I go when I have eye surgery

952
00:36:24,660 --> 00:36:22,119
let's say do I want him to be thinking

953
00:36:26,309 --> 00:36:24,670
that I am this this eyeball is connected

954
00:36:27,569 --> 00:36:26,319
to my brain yeah well it's the same

955
00:36:29,339 --> 00:36:27,579
thing with me hearing I recently had

956
00:36:31,229 --> 00:36:29,349
nasal surgery because I served too much

957
00:36:33,269 --> 00:36:31,239
and I couldn't smell for like four or

958
00:36:35,039 --> 00:36:33,279
five years and I got the surgery and I

959
00:36:36,809 --> 00:36:35,049
could smell again and he's a

960
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:36,819
neurosurgeon he's very smart guy he

961
00:36:40,979 --> 00:36:39,249
knows how the brain works so on one

962
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:40,989
level here comes a more different way of

963
00:36:46,620 --> 00:36:43,930
putting this it's kind of a pun I think

964
00:36:48,110 --> 00:36:46,630
it's posted it on Facebook if we are

965
00:36:53,390 --> 00:36:48,120
matter

966
00:36:56,060 --> 00:36:53,400
what's the problem if we are just the

967
00:36:58,430 --> 00:36:56,070
brain because physics itself like matter

968
00:37:01,400 --> 00:36:58,440
itself is more mysterious in a weird way

969
00:37:03,260 --> 00:37:01,410
the spirit even describes because think

970
00:37:04,910 --> 00:37:03,270
about you got the level of a of a tree

971
00:37:06,710 --> 00:37:04,920
then you get the level of cells and you

972
00:37:08,540 --> 00:37:06,720
got the level of molecules the level of

973
00:37:10,220 --> 00:37:08,550
atoms you break it all the way down you

974
00:37:11,870 --> 00:37:10,230
get down to the nucleus of the atom

975
00:37:14,090 --> 00:37:11,880
you got the proton the electrons

976
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:14,100
manifesting quarks then you get down to

977
00:37:17,660 --> 00:37:15,690
super string and then Sir Arthur

978
00:37:19,190 --> 00:37:17,670
Eddington pointed out he was a famous

979
00:37:21,290 --> 00:37:19,200
astronomer who confirmed with more or

980
00:37:23,870 --> 00:37:21,300
less confirmed Einstein's general theory

981
00:37:26,180 --> 00:37:23,880
of relativity back in 1919 he said this

982
00:37:30,620 --> 00:37:26,190
is what I quote him exactly something

983
00:37:33,620 --> 00:37:30,630
unknown is doing what I don't know so

984
00:37:37,580 --> 00:37:33,630
watch the Trojan horse here let's just

985
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:37,590
say it's all matter that doesn't explain

986
00:37:43,790 --> 00:37:41,010
it because matter itself is as mystical

987
00:37:45,380 --> 00:37:43,800
as saying it's all spirit I gave this

988
00:37:46,970 --> 00:37:45,390
talk in India I actually was a video

989
00:37:48,350 --> 00:37:46,980
conference because I couldn't go to

990
00:37:50,690 --> 00:37:48,360
India to do it at the dialogue

991
00:37:53,660 --> 00:37:50,700
educational institute and I made this

992
00:37:55,310 --> 00:37:53,670
real simple point I said if we were in

993
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:55,320
heaven you and I are let's imagine we're

994
00:37:58,820 --> 00:37:56,490
in heaven and we're having this

995
00:38:01,940 --> 00:37:58,830
conversation and you said what are we

996
00:38:04,190 --> 00:38:01,950
made out of and you say Dave were made

997
00:38:06,770 --> 00:38:04,200
out of light were radiant beings of

998
00:38:09,350 --> 00:38:06,780
light I wouldn't get depressed I think

999
00:38:12,590 --> 00:38:09,360
oh that's cool that's really neat but

1000
00:38:14,660 --> 00:38:12,600
here on terra firma when we find out

1001
00:38:16,790 --> 00:38:14,670
that somebody says you just matter we

1002
00:38:17,750 --> 00:38:16,800
get depressed i've suggested we get

1003
00:38:20,450 --> 00:38:17,760
depressed because we have a bad

1004
00:38:22,850 --> 00:38:20,460
definition of what matter actually is

1005
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:22,860
cuz good eat you cos MC squared by

1006
00:38:27,380 --> 00:38:25,290
Einstein matters energy matters light

1007
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:27,390
you and I are congealed particles of

1008
00:38:31,820 --> 00:38:29,610
light or frozen popsicles of light so on

1009
00:38:34,310 --> 00:38:31,830
one level if you give them the

1010
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:34,320
materialist argument it's gonna bite

1011
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:36,930
them in the posterior because nobody

1012
00:38:42,710 --> 00:38:39,570
knows what matter ultimately is that

1013
00:38:44,470 --> 00:38:42,720
makes a sense it does in a very

1014
00:38:48,230 --> 00:38:44,480
interesting and I mean that sincerely

1015
00:38:48,890 --> 00:38:48,240
philosophical kind of I mean that I mean

1016
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:48,900
that sincerely

1017
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:52,050
but it gets back to really your your

1018
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:53,490
work in the body of your work that

1019
00:38:58,930 --> 00:38:55,770
you've created in some way in that if

1020
00:39:02,030 --> 00:38:58,940
there is this larger reality of

1021
00:39:03,740 --> 00:39:02,040
consciousness of spirituality let's

1022
00:39:05,210 --> 00:39:03,750
put that term on it because that's where

1023
00:39:07,460 --> 00:39:05,220
things really head if you go down that

1024
00:39:10,850 --> 00:39:07,470
path very far then you can pretty

1025
00:39:14,030 --> 00:39:10,860
quickly come to this realization that

1026
00:39:16,250 --> 00:39:14,040
this reality isn't reality this isn't

1027
00:39:18,740 --> 00:39:16,260
real and therefore anything that we

1028
00:39:20,540 --> 00:39:18,750
might postulate or kind of speculate

1029
00:39:24,650 --> 00:39:20,550
about is really just kind of does it

1030
00:39:27,770 --> 00:39:24,660
matter anyway and anyone in these cults

1031
00:39:30,170 --> 00:39:27,780
or in these new-age religious movements

1032
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:30,180
that you've studied so well could say

1033
00:39:35,390 --> 00:39:32,970
the same thing let's say Dave you don't

1034
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:35,400
realize it doesn't matter if I'm doing

1035
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:38,130
sleight of hand because it's all the

1036
00:39:42,890 --> 00:39:40,650
same buddy we're all getting to the same

1037
00:39:45,170 --> 00:39:42,900
place and instead you've stepped in

1038
00:39:47,690 --> 00:39:45,180
there and said well wait a minute as you

1039
00:39:50,390 --> 00:39:47,700
said in this terra firma in this reality

1040
00:39:52,250 --> 00:39:50,400
i like to say in this consensus reality

1041
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:52,260
where we can say yeah there is a wave

1042
00:39:56,930 --> 00:39:54,090
out there and I served it this morning

1043
00:39:59,270 --> 00:39:56,940
in this consensus reality it does make a

1044
00:40:01,610 --> 00:39:59,280
difference you're a fraud you're

1045
00:40:04,730 --> 00:40:01,620
injuring people you shouldn't do that

1046
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:04,740
and I'm going to stop you in the same

1047
00:40:11,030 --> 00:40:08,010
way I think we have to use the best

1048
00:40:12,740 --> 00:40:11,040
means we have to be precise here and to

1049
00:40:16,460 --> 00:40:12,750
say that's not good enough

1050
00:40:19,430 --> 00:40:16,470
yes this consciousness does seem if it

1051
00:40:21,650 --> 00:40:19,440
is established as I think it clearly is

1052
00:40:23,870 --> 00:40:21,660
that consciousness cannot be explained

1053
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:23,880
purely by the biological function your

1054
00:40:29,390 --> 00:40:26,130
brain then we just got a bucket up and

1055
00:40:32,060 --> 00:40:29,400
deal with that and not try and find a

1056
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:32,070
trick back door to why that might be

1057
00:40:35,570 --> 00:40:34,290
okay we have to do our best to see it's

1058
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:35,580
either real or it isn't

1059
00:40:39,590 --> 00:40:37,890
well III again I kind of us feeling it

1060
00:40:42,020 --> 00:40:39,600
posted this morning where we can do a

1061
00:40:44,210 --> 00:40:42,030
two-pronged approach I mean we can both

1062
00:40:46,070 --> 00:40:44,220
be skeptical I guess you the most famous

1063
00:40:48,260 --> 00:40:46,080
story I have related to this is a guy

1064
00:40:50,900 --> 00:40:48,270
named faqir chand who was a pretty

1065
00:40:53,060 --> 00:40:50,910
famous gu he's been dead since 1981 and

1066
00:40:55,100 --> 00:40:53,070
he meditated or coq try to induce a

1067
00:40:56,720 --> 00:40:55,110
conscious near-death experience his

1068
00:40:59,030 --> 00:40:56,730
whole life and he did it it became very

1069
00:41:01,310 --> 00:40:59,040
successful and having conscious OBEs

1070
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:01,320
they did this practice called shop at

1071
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:02,490
yoga and he did it for like 70 years

1072
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:05,850
very interesting God and he can have

1073
00:41:09,830 --> 00:41:08,490
these ability to leave his body and go

1074
00:41:11,330 --> 00:41:09,840
to different realms of consciousness

1075
00:41:12,140 --> 00:41:11,340
exactly what the point that you're

1076
00:41:13,990 --> 00:41:12,150
trying to make you know because

1077
00:41:16,270 --> 00:41:14,000
eventually gets spiritual right

1078
00:41:19,050 --> 00:41:16,280
what's so interesting about him however

1079
00:41:21,339 --> 00:41:19,060
is that he began to doubt the

1080
00:41:24,430 --> 00:41:21,349
explanations of what was happening in

1081
00:41:26,530 --> 00:41:24,440
those out-of-body experiences so like in

1082
00:41:28,570 --> 00:41:26,540
1919 is in Basel on a Baghdad just right

1083
00:41:29,890 --> 00:41:28,580
after World War one and he thinks he's

1084
00:41:32,770 --> 00:41:29,900
gonna get killed he thinks he's gonna

1085
00:41:35,109 --> 00:41:32,780
dies with his compatriots and he has a

1086
00:41:36,310 --> 00:41:35,119
vision of his guru maha rishi ship

1087
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:36,320
Bradlaugh don't worry about the name and

1088
00:41:40,150 --> 00:41:38,690
the Guru says don't shoot the enemy they

1089
00:41:41,830 --> 00:41:40,160
just come to take away their dead

1090
00:41:43,300 --> 00:41:41,840
well fakir Chandan follows the

1091
00:41:44,950 --> 00:41:43,310
instructions tells the super dar major

1092
00:41:46,839 --> 00:41:44,960
everybody's life is saved but it's

1093
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:46,849
around the same time however as he goes

1094
00:41:50,950 --> 00:41:49,130
back to Baghdad he sees his old friends

1095
00:41:53,349 --> 00:41:50,960
from India and they start to bow and

1096
00:41:55,060 --> 00:41:53,359
worship Nikhil what he was why did

1097
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:55,070
worshiping me they said don't you know

1098
00:41:59,980 --> 00:41:57,050
we were in the battlefield we prayed to

1099
00:42:02,140 --> 00:41:59,990
a guru but he didn't show up you showed

1100
00:42:03,730 --> 00:42:02,150
up Fricker Chand and saved our lives a

1101
00:42:05,349 --> 00:42:03,740
fakir cheong looked at me he was smoking

1102
00:42:07,450 --> 00:42:05,359
a hookah Piper I checked it was tobacco

1103
00:42:10,180 --> 00:42:07,460
he goes David I didn't know anything

1104
00:42:11,260 --> 00:42:10,190
about it who appeared to them right and

1105
00:42:12,430 --> 00:42:11,270
so he starts to show me these letters

1106
00:42:14,020 --> 00:42:12,440
about all these people having these

1107
00:42:14,980 --> 00:42:14,030
incredible miracles and visions about

1108
00:42:17,849 --> 00:42:14,990
him and he goes I don't know anything

1109
00:42:20,859 --> 00:42:17,859
about it so he began to doubt the

1110
00:42:22,870 --> 00:42:20,869
explanation doubt the experience but he

1111
00:42:24,550 --> 00:42:22,880
endowed the doubted the interpretation

1112
00:42:26,859 --> 00:42:24,560
of what was occurring so he later

1113
00:42:28,930 --> 00:42:26,869
radically said this is all a projection

1114
00:42:31,599 --> 00:42:28,940
of my own line now faqir chand did

1115
00:42:33,790 --> 00:42:31,609
believe that consciousness may transcend

1116
00:42:35,829 --> 00:42:33,800
the body but I have the only reason I

1117
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:35,839
mentioned this to you is that I think we

1118
00:42:39,190 --> 00:42:37,490
could take a two pronged approach it

1119
00:42:41,770 --> 00:42:39,200
doesn't have to be one versus the other

1120
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:41,780
I I meditate just between you and will

1121
00:42:45,430 --> 00:42:43,130
not between if the whole world I

1122
00:42:46,870 --> 00:42:45,440
meditate every day maybe an hour and a

1123
00:42:50,079 --> 00:42:46,880
half two hours a day a lot my kids think

1124
00:42:52,589 --> 00:42:50,089
I'm annotate too much and I love that's

1125
00:42:54,579 --> 00:42:52,599
the feeling of that sensation of

1126
00:42:56,740 --> 00:42:54,589
meditation because it feels spiritual

1127
00:43:00,070 --> 00:42:56,750
right but maybe later on that afternoon

1128
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:00,080
I could read a lot of Dawkins and Hara

1129
00:43:04,570 --> 00:43:02,330
so the late Christopher Hitchens or

1130
00:43:07,359 --> 00:43:04,580
Daniel Dennett or Gerald Edelman

1131
00:43:12,579 --> 00:43:07,369
they take on my skeptical hat try to be

1132
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:12,589
injured I mean I just enjoy doing that I

1133
00:43:17,260 --> 00:43:14,570
think it's fun because as f scott

1134
00:43:19,359 --> 00:43:17,270
Fitzgerald to quote from his famous

1135
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:19,369
essay for Esquire called the crack-up

1136
00:43:24,339 --> 00:43:22,250
back in the 1930s he said the sign of an

1137
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:24,349
intelligent mind is the ability they

1138
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:27,010
have two opposing ideas

1139
00:43:32,700 --> 00:43:30,130
yeah at the same time and not go nuts or

1140
00:43:34,770 --> 00:43:32,710
be able to function so I think what

1141
00:43:37,980 --> 00:43:34,780
you've done I'll give you a real Kudo

1142
00:43:40,290 --> 00:43:37,990
here you become the skeptic of the

1143
00:43:43,590 --> 00:43:40,300
skeptic and that's important because

1144
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:43,600
what it does it forces the skeptic

1145
00:43:49,740 --> 00:43:46,570
whenever I said game on it forces this

1146
00:43:51,690 --> 00:43:49,750
skeptic to raise the stakes and with

1147
00:43:54,390 --> 00:43:51,700
Churchland I think you do clearly point

1148
00:43:57,510 --> 00:43:54,400
out she did not do enough background

1149
00:43:59,810 --> 00:43:57,520
research and just to quote Lancet enough

1150
00:44:03,420 --> 00:43:59,820
is insufficient that I agree with you

1151
00:44:05,970 --> 00:44:03,430
you know the only problem with that is

1152
00:44:09,060 --> 00:44:05,980
that what I've found in this journey of

1153
00:44:13,260 --> 00:44:09,070
mine through the skeptical community is

1154
00:44:17,430 --> 00:44:13,270
that it's not two opinions there's

1155
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:17,440
another force at play there's a power

1156
00:44:23,130 --> 00:44:19,530
structure there that is

1157
00:44:26,490 --> 00:44:23,140
self-perpetuating skeptics are the tip

1158
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:26,500
of the spear for scientific materialism

1159
00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:29,490
and scientific materialism is

1160
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:33,250
fundamental to our way of life you can't

1161
00:44:40,620 --> 00:44:37,410
go drop bombs on people and shoot

1162
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:40,630
depleted uranium from your tanks at the

1163
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:44,850
Iraqis unless you have a scientific

1164
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:47,890
materialistic worldview it is not

1165
00:44:53,940 --> 00:44:51,130
possible you can't grab all the world's

1166
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:53,950
water and say hey if you're thirsty too

1167
00:45:00,270 --> 00:44:57,210
bad you can't do that if we're all

1168
00:45:02,460 --> 00:45:00,280
really connected I'm not trying to be

1169
00:45:06,359 --> 00:45:02,470
spiritual here I'm just trying to be

1170
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:06,369
practical so there are some major forces

1171
00:45:11,460 --> 00:45:09,010
at play here and we don't know I'm not

1172
00:45:14,250 --> 00:45:11,470
smart enough or savvy enough or

1173
00:45:16,349 --> 00:45:14,260
connected enough to know the extent to

1174
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:16,359
which they're at play but they're sure

1175
00:45:21,330 --> 00:45:18,130
as hell at play here

1176
00:45:24,930 --> 00:45:21,340
so these skeptics are allowed to run out

1177
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:24,940
there like jackals and jesters and play

1178
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:26,530
these dirty tricks

1179
00:45:32,580 --> 00:45:29,290
because again they're the tip of the

1180
00:45:37,170 --> 00:45:32,590
spear for a scientific establishment who

1181
00:45:39,609 --> 00:45:37,180
needs that kind of mischief-making so

1182
00:45:41,439 --> 00:45:39,619
that they can keep business as usual

1183
00:45:43,089 --> 00:45:41,449
at one point on that you know having

1184
00:45:44,829 --> 00:45:43,099
gone through you know a fairly rigorous

1185
00:45:47,229 --> 00:45:44,839
program at UCSD and knowing lots of

1186
00:45:49,359 --> 00:45:47,239
scientific friends of mine I'm not sure

1187
00:45:51,939 --> 00:45:49,369
that's true I mean I agree with you that

1188
00:45:53,679 --> 00:45:51,949
the overarching paradigm is to reduce

1189
00:45:56,170 --> 00:45:53,689
things to material structures I agree

1190
00:45:58,569 --> 00:45:56,180
yeah but this is against the Iraq war I

1191
00:46:00,519 --> 00:45:58,579
think it's ridiculous but my sense of it

1192
00:46:02,410 --> 00:46:00,529
that has more to do with capitalism and

1193
00:46:04,900 --> 00:46:02,420
not necessarily with science even though

1194
00:46:07,569 --> 00:46:04,910
a quite agree that that the capitalism

1195
00:46:10,150 --> 00:46:07,579
can sabotage debut totally totally it's

1196
00:46:13,539 --> 00:46:10,160
it's not like some professor at UCSD has

1197
00:46:16,359 --> 00:46:13,549
signed some secret document that I links

1198
00:46:19,779 --> 00:46:16,369
him to supporting this stuff right right

1199
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:19,789
system it becomes institutionalized it

1200
00:46:26,259 --> 00:46:22,729
becomes systemic where this is what you

1201
00:46:27,969 --> 00:46:26,269
do just to get to the next cookie crumb

1202
00:46:29,979 --> 00:46:27,979
that's on the ground you never see the

1203
00:46:31,089 --> 00:46:29,989
big picture there's very few people that

1204
00:46:33,069 --> 00:46:31,099
see the big picture

1205
00:46:35,109 --> 00:46:33,079
you know here's what I was gonna bring

1206
00:46:37,870 --> 00:46:35,119
back one last point in and appreciate

1207
00:46:40,029 --> 00:46:37,880
your your openness of awesome discussion

1208
00:46:42,039 --> 00:46:40,039
dialogue here but I do have to mention

1209
00:46:44,979 --> 00:46:42,049
this guy because he's just a pain in the

1210
00:46:49,089 --> 00:46:44,989
butt could you talk a little bit about

1211
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:49,099
Jerry calling oh right I repeat some of

1212
00:46:53,529 --> 00:46:51,650
the gibberish that he's posted and I say

1213
00:46:55,359 --> 00:46:53,539
gibberish because the stuff he said

1214
00:46:56,910 --> 00:46:55,369
about me is totally baseless I don't

1215
00:46:59,679 --> 00:46:56,920
even have to go into it because any

1216
00:47:01,209 --> 00:46:59,689
fair-minded person can just listen to

1217
00:47:03,699 --> 00:47:01,219
the interview and the follow-up

1218
00:47:06,910 --> 00:47:03,709
interview that I did with him it's

1219
00:47:08,259 --> 00:47:06,920
obvious anyone will see it but let me

1220
00:47:10,539 --> 00:47:08,269
back up for a minute you know for folks

1221
00:47:13,539 --> 00:47:10,549
who don't know dr. Jerry Coyne from the

1222
00:47:15,489 --> 00:47:13,549
University of Chicago is this I got to

1223
00:47:18,729 --> 00:47:15,499
say he's an over-the-top atheist who

1224
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:18,739
loves getting into these obscene filled

1225
00:47:24,390 --> 00:47:22,249
rants about religion and he's supposed

1226
00:47:28,479 --> 00:47:24,400
to be somewhat of an expert on

1227
00:47:32,650 --> 00:47:28,489
evolutionary theory in Darwin so I just

1228
00:47:35,559 --> 00:47:32,660
have to throw this in there because my

1229
00:47:37,779 --> 00:47:35,569
show right and as he says it was quite

1230
00:47:39,309 --> 00:47:37,789
contentious but anyone who knows this

1231
00:47:42,339 --> 00:47:39,319
guy knows that that's the way he loves

1232
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:42,349
it you know like oh man it was so

1233
00:47:47,949 --> 00:47:45,410
content that is his game all the way so

1234
00:47:50,349 --> 00:47:47,959
one of the questions I was able to get

1235
00:47:52,269 --> 00:47:50,359
through to him and it has to do with the

1236
00:47:53,870 --> 00:47:52,279
history of the theory of evolution and

1237
00:47:56,990 --> 00:47:53,880
the relationship between

1238
00:47:58,609 --> 00:47:57,000
Charles Darwin yes an Alfred Russel

1239
00:48:01,039 --> 00:47:58,619
Wallace which anyone who knows this

1240
00:48:04,910 --> 00:48:01,049
history is a fascinating little story so

1241
00:48:07,970 --> 00:48:04,920
in particular jerry was emphatic about

1242
00:48:11,539 --> 00:48:07,980
claiming Alfred Russel Wallace never

1243
00:48:14,630 --> 00:48:11,549
connected biogeography to evolution he

1244
00:48:17,630 --> 00:48:14,640
this was actually his quote Wallace did

1245
00:48:20,180 --> 00:48:17,640
not use biogeography as evidence of

1246
00:48:21,980 --> 00:48:20,190
evolution I mean never

1247
00:48:24,079 --> 00:48:21,990
so he's emphatic about this point he

1248
00:48:26,420 --> 00:48:24,089
went on and on about it and of course

1249
00:48:28,370 --> 00:48:26,430
it's just anyone I don't even know this

1250
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:28,380
stuff Dave and this is not this is so

1251
00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:30,930
outside of my field but I knew this I

1252
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:33,119
know it was a completely absurd thing to

1253
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:37,170
say so I mean I kind of had in the back

1254
00:48:42,829 --> 00:48:38,970
of my head that Wallace was considered

1255
00:48:45,529 --> 00:48:42,839
the fire the father of biogeography so I

1256
00:48:47,599 --> 00:48:45,539
interviewed professor Michael Flannery

1257
00:48:50,690 --> 00:48:47,609
who's an author he author days a

1258
00:48:51,890 --> 00:48:50,700
biographer of Wallace wrote a book about

1259
00:48:54,730 --> 00:48:51,900
him that I think it's called a

1260
00:48:58,249 --> 00:48:54,740
rediscovered life and I mean he just

1261
00:49:02,690 --> 00:48:58,259
exposes coin for the loudmouth ignoramus

1262
00:49:04,759 --> 00:49:02,700
that he is and it's game over if anyone

1263
00:49:08,710 --> 00:49:04,769
just listens or does just a basic search

1264
00:49:11,059 --> 00:49:08,720
on it so this is the kind of scientific

1265
00:49:13,670 --> 00:49:11,069
establishment the loony fringe of it

1266
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:13,680
that I say is the tip of the spear that

1267
00:49:18,380 --> 00:49:15,210
really they let these people run out

1268
00:49:21,259 --> 00:49:18,390
there because it kind of creates stirs

1269
00:49:22,940 --> 00:49:21,269
up all this stuff that then people just

1270
00:49:24,740 --> 00:49:22,950
turn the other way because it's like oh

1271
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:24,750
gosh I didn't want to get into that it's

1272
00:49:28,579 --> 00:49:26,970
another debate I want there must be two

1273
00:49:31,339 --> 00:49:28,589
sides to it we can never get to the

1274
00:49:33,859 --> 00:49:31,349
bottom of it and again I think as

1275
00:49:36,829 --> 00:49:33,869
evidenced by all your work that's a good

1276
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:36,839
strategy to obscure the truth I'm sure

1277
00:49:39,980 --> 00:49:38,490
you've run into that with cults huh cuz

1278
00:49:42,049 --> 00:49:39,990
I've seen it a little bit you know if

1279
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:42,059
they can put it's like a Scientology you

1280
00:49:46,910 --> 00:49:44,490
know if they can just kind of muddy the

1281
00:49:49,009 --> 00:49:46,920
waters a little bit and kind of throw

1282
00:49:51,079 --> 00:49:49,019
this out there and that out there they

1283
00:49:52,970 --> 00:49:51,089
can get most people to just drive by and

1284
00:49:55,309 --> 00:49:52,980
say well it's just another fight don't

1285
00:49:57,289 --> 00:49:55,319
worry about it but the good news because

1286
00:49:59,329 --> 00:49:57,299
I did see the follow-up study I did see

1287
00:50:02,089 --> 00:49:59,339
you tag them on that because I did see

1288
00:50:04,339 --> 00:50:02,099
the other interview and the good news is

1289
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:04,349
that you got him on it do you understand

1290
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:07,010
i allowing him to speak like that

1291
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:09,050
is that you now have evidence where you

1292
00:50:13,780 --> 00:50:11,450
can say it makes no dent in the

1293
00:50:16,150 --> 00:50:13,790
machinery it marches on

1294
00:50:17,830 --> 00:50:16,160
well yes no you know you say that but I

1295
00:50:19,300 --> 00:50:17,840
kinda have a feeling it doesn't I think

1296
00:50:21,100 --> 00:50:19,310
for instance because in light of the

1297
00:50:23,050 --> 00:50:21,110
internet and so many different sources

1298
00:50:24,700 --> 00:50:23,060
of information is you know you have a

1299
00:50:26,710 --> 00:50:24,710
lot of fans you have a lot of people

1300
00:50:28,900 --> 00:50:26,720
that believe the position you've taken

1301
00:50:31,030 --> 00:50:28,910
so I have a feeling that the discussion

1302
00:50:33,100 --> 00:50:31,040
is opened up more for instance I'll give

1303
00:50:35,650 --> 00:50:33,110
you one example to look from a skeptical

1304
00:50:37,870 --> 00:50:35,660
textbook if the skeptical textbook is

1305
00:50:38,980 --> 00:50:37,880
called how to think about weird things I

1306
00:50:40,210 --> 00:50:38,990
don't know if you ever seen that by

1307
00:50:42,850 --> 00:50:40,220
Michael Sherman it's a different book

1308
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:42,860
and at the very end of it you didn't

1309
00:50:46,180 --> 00:50:45,050
like this it's it makes the argument at

1310
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:46,190
the very end of the book it makes an

1311
00:50:52,060 --> 00:50:49,690
argument that the ganzfeld experiments

1312
00:50:54,220 --> 00:50:52,070
have actually have evidence to support

1313
00:50:56,290 --> 00:50:54,230
them and this isn't this I'll give you

1314
00:51:02,800 --> 00:50:56,300
just read you the quote it's Theodore

1315
00:51:05,430 --> 00:51:02,810
Scheck s CH IC K and this is a textbook

1316
00:51:07,990 --> 00:51:05,440
that's used across the country in

1317
00:51:09,430 --> 00:51:08,000
critical thinking classes and what's

1318
00:51:11,890 --> 00:51:09,440
really quite interesting about it is

1319
00:51:13,900 --> 00:51:11,900
that he actually admits that the

1320
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:13,910
ganzfeld experiments have some

1321
00:51:16,390 --> 00:51:15,050
evansville let's see if I can get the

1322
00:51:16,690 --> 00:51:16,400
exact quote free so it'll sound like an

1323
00:51:19,930 --> 00:51:16,700
idiot

1324
00:51:21,220 --> 00:51:19,940
here it goes the gans fat oh here it

1325
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:21,230
goes I'll just who said Stokes has

1326
00:51:25,210 --> 00:51:23,570
calculated that only 62 unreported

1327
00:51:27,910 --> 00:51:25,220
studies at below the chance level are

1328
00:51:30,250 --> 00:51:27,920
needed to nullify original results and

1329
00:51:32,860 --> 00:51:30,260
that numbers a non-static a the ganzfeld

1330
00:51:35,890 --> 00:51:32,870
procedure remains the most promising way

1331
00:51:37,450 --> 00:51:35,900
to demonstrate the existence of SCI BAM

1332
00:51:39,250 --> 00:51:37,460
another well respected psychologists

1333
00:51:42,850 --> 00:51:39,260
remain convinced that these studies

1334
00:51:46,030 --> 00:51:42,860
identify an exception that has not yet

1335
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:46,040
been explained this is that's that's a

1336
00:51:49,780 --> 00:51:47,330
good that's a positive sign

1337
00:51:51,970 --> 00:51:49,790
they're basically opening up that there

1338
00:51:55,110 --> 00:51:51,980
is there is a great scientific study out

1339
00:51:58,180 --> 00:51:55,120
there that might you know survive

1340
00:52:02,740 --> 00:51:58,190
scepticism might survive god forbid

1341
00:52:05,740 --> 00:52:02,750
amazing Randi oh my oh my

1342
00:52:07,060 --> 00:52:05,750
well I'll tell you what let me ask you

1343
00:52:10,330 --> 00:52:07,070
this final question so were you

1344
00:52:12,970 --> 00:52:10,340
sandbagged here not at all you know Alex

1345
00:52:15,580 --> 00:52:12,980
the minute I found out that you were

1346
00:52:18,460 --> 00:52:15,590
from Del Mar I knew you were my kind of

1347
00:52:20,059 --> 00:52:18,470
guy hey you know I do have to mention

1348
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:20,069
this sandbagging thing because it's

1349
00:52:25,249 --> 00:52:23,249
kind of a joke for me now you know it's

1350
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:25,259
become a euphemism for a skeptic or

1351
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:26,729
atheist who got asked some tough

1352
00:52:31,489 --> 00:52:29,249
questions and couldn't you know answer

1353
00:52:33,229 --> 00:52:31,499
them so that's why I throw that all the

1354
00:52:35,539 --> 00:52:33,239
time I mean I'm not even title this that

1355
00:52:37,789 --> 00:52:35,549
you know dr. David Lane wasn't

1356
00:52:39,739 --> 00:52:37,799
sandbagged by questions because it's

1357
00:52:40,849 --> 00:52:39,749
it's just ridiculous you know for these

1358
00:52:44,329 --> 00:52:40,859
Red Bull to claim that they were

1359
00:52:46,279 --> 00:52:44,339
sandbagged so Dave it's been a great

1360
00:52:48,709 --> 00:52:46,289
pleasure a great day and I wanted to

1361
00:52:53,180 --> 00:52:48,719
compliment you in this sense you've made

1362
00:52:55,789 --> 00:52:53,190
me rethink you make me think differently

1363
00:52:57,499 --> 00:52:55,799
and that's a fantastic thing so you know

1364
00:52:59,269 --> 00:52:57,509
be a skeptic of the skeptics because the

1365
00:53:01,339 --> 00:52:59,279
skeptics need it tell us a little bit

1366
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:01,349
about what's coming up for you what are

1367
00:53:07,579 --> 00:53:03,930
you doing any you know kind of exciting

1368
00:53:09,439 --> 00:53:07,589
news I got a really nice invitation from

1369
00:53:11,630 --> 00:53:09,449
the dialogue educational institute in

1370
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:11,640
Agra India where they want to pick I

1371
00:53:15,229 --> 00:53:12,930
can't believe this they must be going

1372
00:53:18,349 --> 00:53:15,239
lowball they want to pay my way to India

1373
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:18,359
and have me get be a keynote speaker on

1374
00:53:22,430 --> 00:53:20,729
a conference on consciousness well you

1375
00:53:24,439 --> 00:53:22,440
know consciousness and materialism and

1376
00:53:26,509 --> 00:53:24,449
these people I think they even had Roger

1377
00:53:28,670 --> 00:53:26,519
Penrose there they have a Nobel Prize

1378
00:53:30,109 --> 00:53:28,680
winner who worked on the Kobe experiment

1379
00:53:32,569 --> 00:53:30,119
coming out so that's coming up in

1380
00:53:34,430 --> 00:53:32,579
November so I'm really excited to try to

1381
00:53:36,829 --> 00:53:34,440
come up with some kind of interesting

1382
00:53:38,749 --> 00:53:36,839
film and book related to this debate

1383
00:53:40,489 --> 00:53:38,759
about like what you're doing about

1384
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:40,499
consciousness it cannot be reduced to

1385
00:53:44,029 --> 00:53:42,690
you know to just neurons or is it

1386
00:53:46,279 --> 00:53:44,039
something transcendent to it

1387
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:46,289
so it's gonna be kind of fun awesome

1388
00:53:51,469 --> 00:53:48,930
well I hope people do check out the

1389
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:51,479
neural surfer and also if they just

1390
00:53:55,789 --> 00:53:53,249
google your name they can find a lot of

1391
00:53:57,109 --> 00:53:55,799
your really interesting essays I do have

1392
00:53:59,749 --> 00:53:57,119
to commend you here they're well written

1393
00:54:00,859 --> 00:53:59,759
and well produced for the web you also

1394
00:54:03,019 --> 00:54:00,869
have some kind of interesting videos

1395
00:54:05,689 --> 00:54:03,029
that you sent me as well so there's a

1396
00:54:09,140 --> 00:54:05,699
lot there for people to check out and

1397
00:54:11,269 --> 00:54:09,150
explore and I hope they do dr. Lane it's

1398
00:54:13,549 --> 00:54:11,279
been great having on skeptic oh thanks

1399
00:54:15,620 --> 00:54:13,559
again hey thanks I really appreciate it

1400
00:54:17,509 --> 00:54:15,630
was a wonderful interview thanks again

1401
00:54:19,549 --> 00:54:17,519
to dr. David Lane for joining me today

1402
00:54:21,949 --> 00:54:19,559
on skeptic oh I'm gonna provide a link

1403
00:54:24,349 --> 00:54:21,959
in the show notes to dr. lanes original

1404
00:54:26,329 --> 00:54:24,359
essay and his follow-up essay that he

1405
00:54:27,799 --> 00:54:26,339
just recently published check those out

1406
00:54:29,839 --> 00:54:27,809
I think you'll find those interesting

1407
00:54:31,579 --> 00:54:29,849
and I want to tee up a question from

1408
00:54:32,660 --> 00:54:31,589
this interview and it's a little bit

1409
00:54:33,799 --> 00:54:32,670
different from the way that I normally

1410
00:54:35,989 --> 00:54:33,809
do these in

1411
00:54:39,309 --> 00:54:35,999
it's a personal question and that is

1412
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:39,319
what does it take for you to change your

1413
00:54:44,989 --> 00:54:43,410
position to let go of a belief and if

1414
00:54:47,269 --> 00:54:44,999
you think back and the times in your

1415
00:54:49,219 --> 00:54:47,279
life where you really did have a strong

1416
00:54:51,769 --> 00:54:49,229
belief about particularly about

1417
00:54:54,109 --> 00:54:51,779
something science related or the way the

1418
00:54:58,130 --> 00:54:54,119
world works related you know business

1419
00:55:01,400 --> 00:54:58,140
politics social issues whatever you had

1420
00:55:03,769 --> 00:55:01,410
a belief and it changed for you what was

1421
00:55:05,809 --> 00:55:03,779
that process like what did it take what

1422
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:05,819
was effective in helping you make the

1423
00:55:09,890 --> 00:55:08,130
change and how did you feel after you

1424
00:55:12,679 --> 00:55:09,900
made that change and have you maybe

1425
00:55:14,809 --> 00:55:12,689
changed back so any kind of personal

1426
00:55:16,759 --> 00:55:14,819
accounts about that I think would be

1427
00:55:19,699 --> 00:55:16,769
interesting and I'll be glad to share

1428
00:55:21,589 --> 00:55:19,709
some of my own as well of course the

1429
00:55:24,109 --> 00:55:21,599
place to do this is at the skeptic o

1430
00:55:26,179 --> 00:55:24,119
forum which has been quite temperamental

1431
00:55:29,449 --> 00:55:26,189
lately as I'm still trying to work out

1432
00:55:31,069 --> 00:55:29,459
some technical problems with system

1433
00:55:33,199 --> 00:55:31,079
hosting and the like getting a lot of

1434
00:55:36,410 --> 00:55:33,209
good education and that from some of my

1435
00:55:38,539 --> 00:55:36,420
consultants but hopefully the skeptical

1436
00:55:40,489 --> 00:55:38,549
forum will be up you can also leave a

1437
00:55:45,679 --> 00:55:40,499
comment right there at the sceptical

1438
00:55:47,419 --> 00:55:45,689
website at ske p tik o dot-com and from

1439
00:55:49,189 --> 00:55:47,429
there you can click on over the forum or

1440
00:55:50,929 --> 00:55:49,199
leave the comment right there email me

1441
00:55:53,989 --> 00:55:50,939
Facebook me all those things are

1442
00:55:56,449 --> 00:55:53,999
available as our links to all our over

1443
00:55:58,880 --> 00:55:56,459
two hundred previous shows of skeptical

1444
00:56:01,459 --> 00:55:58,890
which you can subscribe to through

1445
00:56:03,739 --> 00:56:01,469
iTunes or download directly from the

1446
00:56:05,599 --> 00:56:03,749
website so that's going to do it for

1447
00:56:07,699 --> 00:56:05,609
this episode number of interesting shows

1448
00:56:10,429 --> 00:56:07,709
coming up a lot of things going on hope

1449
00:56:12,589 --> 00:56:10,439
I can get it all out to you in a timely

1450
00:56:14,169 --> 00:56:12,599
fashion hope you're enjoying it hope

1451
00:56:17,299 --> 00:56:14,179
you're sharing it with your friends

1452
00:56:19,219 --> 00:56:17,309
colleagues with the world and there's

1453
00:56:20,959 --> 00:56:19,229
nothing more gratifying than hearing

1454
00:56:23,569 --> 00:56:20,969
about your experience with the show in

1455
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:23,579
hearing your desire to share it with